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[Platy]

Thats the equivalen of #AllLivesMatter
Please, dont.

How is that even REMOTELY close to all lives matter ?

 

[diaspora]

What does Cho's art project if not power?

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Is the camel toe really necessary though?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Fair enough.

That's a better track than trying to explain that there are worse examples than an already-bad example, at least.


That's actually a great analogy. Comics have a PR issue and stuff like the topic of this thread do not help it.

I don't see the more interesting stuff enough to even know that it's worth pursuing.

It's a great analogy because it shows how easily swayed you are. The fact that you're citing PR issues instead of actual examples shows how little knowledge you have about the subject you're talking about.

 

[MHWilliams]

The issue here is where the line is being drawn, Milo and Cho like to objectify a human being for the mental and physical masturbation of others, mostly male.

Well, the women they drawn aren't real. This is the other side of the "sex positive" idea another poster tried to bring up.

The larger point and why these shifts are happening is because Marvel and DC are trying to expand their audience. They cannot rely on the aging, primarily male audience that has largely carried them forward until now. They need more diversity, not just in characters, but in storytelling, art, genre, and creators. And many of their mainstream books need to hit that "four-quadrant" audience to borrow a term from films: male and female readers, both under and over 25.

That means they have to go to certain lengths to not alienate certain readers. Hence, the change is the styles of art being marketed for certain characters.

The assumption, variant or not, is that the cover represents the book itself. If you are a neophyte or non-avid comic reader in a comic shop, then for all intents and purposes, what's on the shelf is what's being sold to you as "the book". (If your argument is comic readers already know this stuff, selling just to those same readers is the problem they're trying to correct.) What some are saying is "This marketing is telling me that I'm not necessarily welcome here." And the comic industry isn't doing well enough to just say "fuck it" and continue to send that message.

There are arguments that other Big Two publisher practices: constant relaunches and frequent crossovers actually depress that mainstream segment Marvel and DC are aiming for. I'd also note that Big Two comics, for the most part, don't sell well outside of the major names: some would say that's based on quality, but the numbers don't really back that up in any major way. Looking at last month's numbers: the "best" books don't sell appreciably higher than the books that simply have the familiar names on them. Vision, for example, is one of the books with the highest critical acclaim, but it sells alongside Silk, Snotgirl, Carnage, Teen Titans, and X-Men 92. Which is why DC and Marvel play the name-switch/sharing game: because the audience has taught them that's all that works.

So, the forces mandating that artists like Cho move away from more mainstream books towards personal projects or Big Two titles tailored to their sensibilities aren't some cabal. It's the comic publishers clawing desperately for a way forward.

 

[Riposte]

Cho ruined real life Wonder Woman portrayals for me.

There was plenty of stuff thrown at Manara. Mostly people who kept going on about him not understanding anatomy

Which was pretty stupid. Not only was the anatomy reasonably fine, it was obvious highly stylized (as covers go). All of those distracting arguments over realism when the fact of the matter is that the one and only issue is that it was sexy (or sexually objectifying, if you prefer). Personally I thought the cover was thematically interesting in how it combined sexiness with a general creepy spider look (this was actually helped by the way Manara drew the face, which is usually my least favorite thing of his art). I suppose the issue, for some at least (but I doubt many), was only really a big deal because it clashed with the newer direction of Spiderwoman; I would think the fact it was a rarer, collectable alt-cover would resolve it's inconsistency in tone, but whatever.

EDIT: Cho seems childish (which isn't the end of the world) because of how he beats the dead horse with Spidergwen, but the dude he's trying to piss off seems to deserve giving he called the character his daughter and implied a violent threat. It must be tempting to bait that guy. Just going off the tweets I saw a long time ago, so I have no idea what the situation is now.

 

[diaspora]

I mean, Cho hasn't necessarily said he's against drawing stuff that's not cheesecake because... he draws non-cheesecake stuff all the time. I think where he gets offended is when he's told that he's got creative freedom only later to find out he doesn't; or when people argue against him exercising it when he has it.

 

[meltingparappa]

Is the camel toe really necessary though?

I agree. It completely breaks the composition, creates a tangent to the thigh, and does the easy amateur mistake of drawing the eye away from the chiaroscuro in mama's naughty anus.

Excessive.

 

[Palette Swap]

Side note I hate the new business strategy playing the victim to appeal to the aggrieved white man(gamer gator).

Understand it, but hate it

The PlayAsia strategy. They even had a CENSORSHIP promo code recently lol.

 

[jurgen]

Thats the equivalen of #AllLivesMatter
Please, dont.

I can't even begin to wrap my head around this backwards logic.

Say what you want, but think that if a girl does this, it gets reprimanded and censored to the point of quitting. Just look at the "Feminist Agenda" picture debacle that just happened and ended driving the artist away from twitter,

The Chelsea Cain situation was a disaster but also not limited to people being upset over the "feminist agenda." That was one the straws that broke the camel's back. Cain was also receiving shit from the other side of the aisle for retconning a story of Mockingbird being raped into her consentually cheating with said rapist.

Cho and Manara are simply riding on the whole male privilege train as kings while smaller groups who even struggle to get published are shun down because "they dont show enough butt". Comic media in the big two is a pornographic payload, not even a serious storytelling medium. It has always been, or tell me when has comic sales done well on their own without a big summer event? [talking strictly about DC/Marvel].

You seem like you haven't read a comic in the past year or two. Events are big sellers in the industry but it doesn't rely on being pornographic in order to generate sales. Two of the highest selling "non event" comics of 2016 so far are Black Panther #1, with an African lead and Champions #1 with a Pakistani Muslim, Hispanic, Black-Hispanic, Asian, and a robot and neither of those books are what you describe as a "pornographic payload."

 

[NastyBook]

... Jessica Drew?



The faces he draws generally look too alike IMO.

Yeah, he is mad samefacey.

 

[Kinyou]

Side note I hate the new business strategy playing the victim to appeal to the aggrieved white man(gamer gator).

Understand it, but hate it

Everyone tends to see themselves as a victim, no matter how true or not, I think that has been the case for the longest time.

 

[Slayven]

The PlayAsia strategy. They even had a CENSORSHIP promo code recently lol.

yeah and that is why they will never see a cent from me

Everyone tends to see themselves as a victim, no matter how true or not, I think that has been the case for the longest time.

But Gamer Gators are unqiue in they are willing to literally burn money if appears to affront to SJW. MIlo started a white man scholarship and skipped off with teh money

 

[HotHamBoy]

I don't think "same face" is particularly applicable to Campbell. The five members of Gen 13 all had pretty distinct faces, especially compared to the stars of the day like Jim Lee (who I think is extremely talented, but does suffer from "same face" way worse than Campbell).

Campbell was probably a poor choice for the Riri variant, and it's too bad he hasn't drawn panels since the LAST Clinton administration, but he's not a shitty artist.

Are we talking about the same Jeff Scott Campbell? Are we looking at the same art that comes up when you Google Image Search his name?

Why do comic book artists get graded on a relative curve, compared to other illustrators? A spade is a spade.

for not knowing how to draw a 15 year old :

https://twitter.com/JScottCampbell/status/788799493504311296?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Congrats, you have enoght fuel to create your own model of self sustained cars

That's a funny way of still actually "taking the bait."

Would probably help if he didn't sexify every single female character he ever draws, but that might just be what he gets paid for, so eh. Still not convinced.

What's worse, I wonder: sexualizing every female character you draw or drawing them fairly poorly and the same way every time. Not that it matters, Campbell is guilty of both. I don't care if that's your career, if you can only do one thing then you should try to do it a lot better.

Also, maybe push yourself instead of being boring and safe all the time.

very few artists have a completely diverse typing. western or eastern

And most artists aren't great.

You get great by growing.

90s Chris Bachalo:


Bachalo now:

Excellent! That's a great example of what I mean.

 

[Parallax]

Are we talking about the same Jeff Scott Campbell? Are we looking at the same art that comes up when you Google Image Search his name?

Why do comic book artists get graded on a relative curve, compared to other illustrators? A spade is a spade.

very few artists have a completely diverse typing. western or eastern

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Excellent! That's a great example of what I mean.

Speaking of Campbell:

THIS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

This is how you improve. You don't bitch, you improve. So much better than the original. I always did believe in him.

 

[jurgen]

Speaking of Campbell:

THIS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

This is how you improve. You don't bitch, you improve. So much better than the original.

The interesting thing will be if things turn in his favor now.

Again, I wasn't that upset over the original Campbell cover. It was more a lazy piece and an exclusive variant to a single retailer.

 

[Skilletor]

Speaking of Campbell:

THIS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

This is how you improve. You don't bitch, you improve. So much better than the original. I always did believe in him.

That's awesome.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

The interesting thing will be if things turn in his favor now.

Again, I wasn't that upset over the original Campbell cover. It was more a lazy piece and an exclusive variant to a single retailer.

Well he still needs to properly apologize for the SJW tweet and to some black female critics that got harassed during that whole mess for pointing out the flaws of the OG cover.

 

[Parallax]

Speaking of Campbell:

THIS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

This is how you improve. You don't bitch, you improve. So much better than the original. I always did believe in him.

b.but.... sameface hack?

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

b.but.... sameface hack?

He still has a problem with the faces but this is one of his better works and a perfect example of when you give a shit about the criticism people have. Campbell just did the complete opposite of what Cho did.

 

[Parallax]

He still has a problem with the faces but this is one of his better works and a perfect example of when you give a shit about the criticism people have. Campbell just did the complete opposite of what Cho did.

i dont think he really gave a shit about the criticism.

 

[MHWilliams]

Speaking of Campbell:

THIS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

This is how you improve. You don't bitch, you improve. So much better than the original. I always did believe in him.

Much better.

b.but.... sameface hack?

Yeah? His last few variant covers:

 

[XAL]

Bengal San posted this earlier today on facebook.

A brazilian response(NSFW)

Holy shit those are great. I'm sure they'd want to buy the originals.

I think in the future, if someone makes a sexualized variant cover - they go tit for tat and do one for the other side to make it fair.

 

[Parallax]

smiling women are sameface now? ok.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

i dont think he really gave a shit about the criticism.

Then he wouldn't have redone the cover and moved on.

Much better.



Yeah? His last few variant covers:

The Josie and the last Renew Your Vows cover are cute.

 

[MHWilliams]

smiling women are sameface now? ok.

If you can't agree that those are very, very similar faces, then it's not even worth having the discussion. We're on completely different spheres.

The Josie and the last Renew Your Vows cover are cute.

He tends to have a lot of fun on the covers, but I find his compositions a bit rote and it feels like he's been phoning it in for a long time.

 

[Laiza]

Confirmation bias at work!

All aboard the confirmation bias train!

It's a great analogy because it shows how easily swayed you are. The fact that you're citing PR issues instead of actual examples shows how little knowledge you have about the subject you're talking about.

I'm talking about exposure here. If I'm just not getting exposed to the positive examples then post the positive examples. Don't just blindly mock my opinion if you actually have counter-examples to give.

Like, yeah, I'm ignorant (I literally admitted that, like come on dudes), so why the dogpiling? You gonna educate me or what?

I see you've entered the "talking about me, not to me" phase, but again, I think Jim Lee and J Scott Campbell are both good artists. Jim Lee is guilty of some "same face", but that fault doesn't make him a bad artist overall, and I think Campbell is less guilty of it than many other artists (I mean hell, he draws caricatures). I think that many many artists, probably most, are gulity of it to some extent... both western artist and DEFINITELY manga artists. There's lots of criteria to judge an artist by other than that one.

That's all well and good, but you have to actually post examples for me to go by since we're talking specifically about an artist's output here. Just telling me that you think he's a good artist doesn't actually tell me anything other than your opinion.

This post is what you SHOULD be doing:

Speaking of Campbell:

THIS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

This is how you improve. You don't bitch, you improve. So much better than the original. I always did believe in him.

Great counter-example that illustrates the artist's skill and range.

This comment is so odd considering Japan's output.

Not really. Artists like Yusuke Murata and Kohei Horikoshi are both technically proficient and have a wide range - and oddly enough, both are influenced by a mix of Western and Eastern works, which I think says something about how that influence can push artists to new heights.

Of course, you then also have artists like Akira Toriyama who are famous for their samefaceyness, but eh. Not suggesting that that's the end-all be-all of artistic skill, just that it's something I pay attention to.

 

[Parallax]

Then he wouldn't have redone the cover and moved on.

someone on up probably asked for it, just like removing manaras spider woman cover

If you can't agree that those are very, very similar faces, then it's not even worth having the discussion. We're on completely different spheres.

its obvious that we arent on the same page

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

someone on up probably asked for it, just like removing manaras spider woman cover

No. Marvel was just gonna use the armored version of the OG variant.

 

[jurgen]

someone on up probably asked for it, just like removing manaras spider woman cover

Knowing how much Campbell tends to just phone in the variants for that particular store, I think he only did it to prove his critics wrong. Marvel is still using his other variant, with the character in the exact same pose but with armor on instead of the clothes she's wearing in the standard cover.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Knowing how much Campbell tends to just phone in the variants for that particular store, I think he only did it to prove his critics wrong. Marvel is still using his other variant, with the character in the exact same pose but with armor on instead of the clothes she's wearing in the standard cover.

The thing is she no longer looks like that. Campbell's new cover is more inline with the new redesign. Idk if it's too late to make it a variant.

 

[jurgen]

The thing is she no longer looks like that. Campbell's new cover is more inline with the new redesign. Idk if it's too late to make it a variant.

It will probably be a variant on an unnecessary second printing that Marvel announces after they've inflated their sales with existing variants in their cycle of unimportant shit.

 

[Flo_Evans]

That's pretty hot. Why is this a problem again?

To me it's like being offended there is weird fetish porn in the porn shop. Hey it's not for me, but I don't think it's wrong if you like it. It's not going to stop me from going to buy my totally normal not wierd porn.

I can't remember the last time I actually went to a porn shop. Thank you internet.

 

[HotHamBoy]

Speaking of Campbell:

THIS. THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT.

This is how you improve. You don't bitch, you improve. So much better than the original. I always did believe in him.

This is a strong drawing and much better than his usual work.

That doesn't excuse his usual work.

Bengal San posted this earlier today on facebook.

 

[petran79]

Dp

 

[petran79]

Thats the equivalen of #AllLivesMatter
Please, dont.

The issue here is where the line is being drawn, Milo and Cho like to objectify a human being for the mental and physical masturbation of others, mostly male.

Say what you want, but think that if a girl does this, it gets reprimanded and censored to the point of quitting. Just look at the "Feminist Agenda" picture debacle that just happened and ended driving the artist away from twitter,

Cho and Manara are simply riding on the whole male privilege train as kings while smaller groups who even struggle to get published are shun down because "they dont show enough butt". Comic media in the big two is a pornographic payload, not even a serious storytelling medium. It has always been, or tell me when has comic sales done well on their own without a big summer event? [talking strictly about DC/Marvel].

Milo was also a member of the authors of the book "Un fascio di bombe", blaming the fascists for the terrorist events of the late-60s in Italy. I would not put him on the same group with white male priviledge.
He also stated that female fantasies are much more exquisite and exciting than male ones..

 

[Nudull]

Bengal San posted this earlier today on facebook.

Because real life women who choose outfits out of their own agency and guys drawing fictional characters based on their own ideas and interests are Totally The Same Thing!

 

[chaobreaker]

Side note I hate the new business strategy playing the victim to appeal to the aggrieved white man(gamer gator).

Understand it, but hate it

I know, right? It's shocking to see so many Youtubers go in that direction post-Gamergate.

 

[IrishNinja]

The PlayAsia strategy. They even had a CENSORSHIP promo code recently lol.

yeah and that is why they will never see a cent from me

ugh, for real? they've doubled-down since the tweet thing? this sucks, ive a preorder for an import game, time to see if amiami or somewhere else has it - might win some, but you just lost one

Because real life women who choose outfits out of their own agency and guys drawing fictional characters based on their own ideas and interests are Totally The Same Thing!

for real, you gotta be super dense to think these are the same thing

 

[LordOfLore]

Frank Cho inducted into italian Hall of Fame.

 

[Skilletor]

I'm talking about exposure here. If I'm just not getting exposed to the positive examples then post the positive examples. Don't just blindly mock my opinion if you actually have counter-examples to give.

Like, yeah, I'm ignorant (I literally admitted that, like come on dudes), so why the dogpiling? You gonna educate me or what?

Re: Campbell

His sketches of real people are awesome:

http://j-scott-campbell.deviantart.com/gallery/47106747/Breaking-Bad
http://j-scott-campbell.deviantart.com/gallery/26557218/LOST-sketches

I pretty much agree with all the crticism of his covers, though, and like him despite that. I don't mind whether or not other people like him.

And...I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Counter-examples to what? You say you're ignorant to comics, are you looking for good comics/art, or good examples of representation of women (or both).

Check out JH Williams III's run on Batgirl
Fiona Staples on Saga

Those are good examples of both, imo.

 

[bengraven]

Because real life women who choose outfits out of their own agency and guys drawing fictional characters based on their own ideas and interests are Totally The Same Thing!

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but when it comes to cosplay, real women get to choose their outfits, I agree with you, but those outfits are occasionally the ones designed by the same guys who get shit for sexualizing women's costumes.

J. Scott Campbell's MJ from Spider-man variants:

Bachalo's Magick Costume.

Movie version of Harley Quinn.

I'm genuinely curious if this is supposed to be a black and white issue. I would love to hear the perspective of the women who dress up as the sexualized characters/outfits.

 

[meltingparappa]

Can't be stressed enough that an in-house art director saw a handful of his thumbnails, then told him to go ahead (with several approval steps along the way) with that cover.

That piece probably isn't Campbell's first choice for a portfolio piece either.

 

[Saint Gregory]

I can't figure out what's bothering me more, the fact that fabric is being sucked into some kind of anal vortex or the weird M.C. Escher perspective on that ledge.

 

[Skilletor]

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but when it comes to cosplay, real women get to choose their outfits, I agree with you, but those outfits are occasionally the ones designed by the same guys who get shit for sexualizing women's costumes.



I'm genuinely curious if this is supposed to be a black and white issue. I would love to hear the perspective of the women who dress up as the sexualized characters/outfits.

A woman can choose to dress however she wants because she has agency. It doesn't matter if the outfit exists on a comic character. The comic character didn't choose to wear it, somebody put them in the outfit. Hopefully that's not the case for a cosplayer, but imagine if it was. Imagine a person taking away a cosplayer's agency and telling a woman, "You must wear this outfit because I know that I, and others, will enjoy looking at it. I don't care what you want. You are wearing the outfit because other people will enjoy seeing it and how you feel about it doesn't factor in this decision."

That's the difference.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I'm genuinely curious if this is supposed to be a black and white issue. I would love to hear the perspective of the women who dress up as the sexualized characters/outfits.

Context is king. The spider-woman book was part of a push by Marvel to broaden their audience and include young women, and they hired Manara for the variant cover and Land for the interiors. That was a dumb move by Marvel, but meanwhile Cho and Manara are free to do whatever the hell they want.

The women cosplaying are exercising their hobby of choice and can likewise do whatever the hell they want.

The cartoon is a strawman.

 

[FyreWulff]

Side note I hate the new business strategy playing the victim to appeal to the aggrieved white man(gamer gator).

Understand it, but hate it

The only solace is that it's basically appealing to a smaller and smaller group by trying to spike your sales from a small section of society when the rest of it goes "We're tired of your shit"

 

[Kinyou]

A woman can choose to dress however she wants because she has agency. It doesn't matter if the outfit exists on a comic character. The comic character didn't choose to wear it, somebody put them in the outfit. Hopefully that's not the case for a cosplayer, but imagine if it was. Imagine a person taking away a cosplayer's agency and telling a woman, "You must wear this outfit because I know that I, and others, will enjoy looking at it. I don't care what you want. You are wearing the outfit because other people will enjoy seeing it and how you feel about it doesn't factor in this decision."

That's the difference.

But isn't part of the argument that those sexualized images perpetuate what makes people feel unwelcome? What's the difference if some young girl sees a sexualized spidergwen cover or a sexy spidergwen cosplay version at a con? I imagine the impact on her is the same.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

But isn't part of the argument that those sexualized images perpetuate what makes people feel unwelcome? What's the difference if some young girl sees a sexualized spidergwen cover or a sexy spidergwen cosplay version at a con? I imagine the impact on her is the same.

Maybe it's the degree of saturation. At a comic book convention that same little girl will see hundreds of women not dressed in spandex, doing the same things any other con-goer is doing.

Meanwhile, on covers and interiors of comics...